Climbing speed comparison: Silvio vs. Vendetta
Wed, 2012-08-22 16:19
Hi!
To those that have experience with both Silvio and Vendetta, how much slower is the Silvio when climbing normal hills, rollers, etc?
I ride a Vendetta now with a compact double and 11-36 rear cassette. But I'm finding that there are still some really big long (small mountain-like) hills that I just can't keep it going. I get down to about 6 mph and stall.
As far as I can figure, the stalling has to do with two issues: 1) my weight to available gear inches, 6'4" 235lbs (1.93m, 107kg), and 2) balance issue whilst reclining so far back on the V at such slow speeds -- yes, I've tried the sit-up technique, but I can't sustain it very long, although it *does* help on particularly short steep sections where failure is not an option.
I do great climbing normal hills and rollers and such. In fact, usually equal or a little faster than DF riders who are with me.
So I've been thinking about the Silvio. If it is at least close to the V on climbing speed on the "normal hills" and rollers, etc, that would be good. And if it could fit a 130/74 BCD triple (see other thread in Silvio forum), I hopefully would be able to keep the bike upright on the monster hills while I drag my heaviness up the hill at 4 mph. 
Although, then I consider that on my last 400k brevet I had to resort to walking the V up the big hills at 3.5 mph (walking pace). So maybe I should just suck it up and walk when I need to walk. I admit that it felt good to get off and walk a bit on a ride as long as a 400k.
Any advice?
Thanks!
Wed, 2012-08-22 21:30
#1
HI CHARLES, I RIDE NEITHER A
Hi Charles,
I ride neither a Silvio nor a Vendetta, so take that into account when weighing the worth of this post.
I think you're right about the causes of your instability. I'm a little smaller than you (couple of inches, couple of kilos), and I can comfortably go 3 mph without problems on my Sofrider. My bike has a much higher seat angle and goes much lower in gear inches (I've got a 22T granny gear compared to your 34T and my 32T rear cog isn't that much smaller - all and all an almost 40% effect.
I believe there is at least one triple that you can fit on the Vendetta. I'm guessing the granny gear would be a 30T which isn't as small as I'd like, might give you enough extra room.
Since most of my post almost seems reasonable up to here, let me deviate. On this post on BROL, the author describes how he uses a blood pressure monitor to help him "bridge" (lift his butt out of the seat) so that he can apply more power to pedals. He also mentions how he has one on the back of his seat as well. These are adjustable while you are riding and I could imagine that something like this might help with you on long hills.
Finally, part of me wanted to point out that with practice, you can learn to go more slowly. But when climbing hills, at some point your body just says "enough" and you stop or fall over (and I usually vote for stop). So I will refrain from suggesting that.
Good luck!
Charles
Charles
Wed, 2012-08-22 21:43
#2
SLOW SPEED CLIMBING
- Slow speed climbing: practice, practice, practice. In time you will be able to go slow. Yes, you need a really small granny gear and then spin it up the hill.
__________________
Randy - Silvio 1.0
Wed, 2012-08-22 22:12
#3
SILVIO VS. VENDETTA
- I responded to your other post. I would think the lighter weight of the V would make it better for climbing than the Silvio. In my opinion, going from the Vendetta (the very best recumbent) to the Silvio (the second best) would be a step down. The advantage of the Silvio is the suspension, but you gain pounds to have it. Your rolling hills performance would not be as fast on the Silvio.
__________________
Randy - Silvio 1.0
Thu, 2012-08-23 03:55
#4
RANDY, YEAH, I REALIZE THE
Randy,
Yeah, I realize the Silvio would be a step down. But I think it's more a step down like moving from a Lamborghini to a more practical Mercedes AMG performance sedan.
I'm going to try the Shimano Ultegra triple. Hopefully the 30t vs 34t inner will be just enough to get my big butt up the monster hills.
Otherwise, like I said, walking won't be much slower.
The only other thing that interested me in the Silvio for randonneuring is that the more upright position would make it easier to navigate strange towns I've never been in before. The extreme recline of the V is great for pounding out the miles, but sometimes make urban navigation difficult at 4am on mile 223 of a 250 mile ride.
Thu, 2012-08-23 03:57
#5
RANDY, RE: SLOW SPEED
Randy,
Re: slow speed climbing. Yeah, I realize it's practice practice practice. However, I think I reach that point where I can't keep my cadence RPM high enough and the slow mashing starts pulling the steering all over. I find that if I concentrate really hard it's manageable. But then if a big dump truck comes by, I lose concentration and have to bail lest I get squished.
Thu, 2012-08-23 05:03
#6
SILVIO ISN'T A "STEP DOWN."
"The only other thing that interested me in the Silvio for randonneuring is that the more upright position would make it easier to navigate strange towns I've never been in before. The extreme recline of the V is great for pounding out the miles, but sometimes make urban navigation difficult at 4am on mile 223 of a 250 mile ride."
It's more of a case of horses for courses. Charlesw said it well here; the Silvio has its purpose as the Vendetta has its purpose. I think both bikes could compliment eachother well if one's budget, garage space and spouse would allow.
Thu, 2012-08-23 06:09
#7
CHARLESW...
- No substitute for small granny gear to keep the cadence up when climbing. Otherwise you WILL run out ot steam!
I kind of have the same problem as you: 6' 6" 250 lbs. Live in hilly country. Love the Silvio performance on the rollers! Use the 26t front chainring for the hills. Takes a lot of practice to ride slow at high cadence. I would rather have the Vendetta, but my roads demand the suspension of the Silvio.
I kind of have the same problem as you: 6' 6" 250 lbs. Live in hilly country. Love the Silvio performance on the rollers! Use the 26t front chainring for the hills. Takes a lot of practice to ride slow at high cadence. I would rather have the Vendetta, but my roads demand the suspension of the Silvio.
__________________
Randy - Silvio 1.0
Thu, 2012-08-23 06:11
#8
JOHN T.
- Wanted: Vendetta with suspension!
__________________
Randy - Silvio 1.0
Thu, 2012-08-23 11:54
#9
DONE A LOT OF BOTH
I've learned a lot about hill climbing in the past couple of years.
A compact double crankset and an 11x36 cassette with a 175mm crank and 700c wheels gives you an amazingly low gain ratio of 1.8. With a cadence of 65 rpm, your speed will be 4.8 mph (I have a spreadsheet that does all these calculations).
By using a Powertap wheel on almost all of my rides, I've learend what power levels I can sustain and for how long. The best climbers are light and have light bikes. The power requirements to climb at a given speed are proportional to the mass being elevated. I can expend about 240W for 20 minutes. If the hill is very steep and long, and I need more than 240W of power to maintain minimum speeed, then it is smarter to walk the bike. Maria's coach advises that when in a long race (e.g. 12 or 24 hours) you only have a limited number of "matches to burn" and it's better to walk the bike when the power requirement goes way up.
In reality, we rarely walk our bikes, but in a long race, it's probably better to maintain a steady, sustainable power output, than overdo it early and lower your performance later.
Charles, the gearing you have should get you down to the 5 mph range. You might need some more practice to be comfortable at those slow speeds, or be in better shape. Much below 5 mph, you might be better off walking.
The Silvio is a good climber, too, but it weighs several more pounds than the Vendetta, so you'll need a few extra watts to climb at the same speed.
Jim
Thu, 2012-08-23 11:59
#10
MASTERFUL POST, JIM.
Masterful post, Jim.
Thu, 2012-08-23 13:28
#11
RANDONNEURING
As someone who is eventually hoping to convert to a Cruzbike for randonneuring events, I bought a Silvio because it seemed to me to be much more a "rando" style bike than the Vendetta. You don't find many racing style DF bikes on your average rando ride, quite the opposite in fact. It's all about comfort, stability, robustness. So to me the Silvio with its suspension, ability to take a rack, more upright position, but good performance, seems to be the ideal rando Cruzbike. The Vendetta I would imagine using on a century/double century ride where I just wanted to go as fast as I can and don't need to be self supporting.
Thu, 2012-08-23 14:19
#12
MICK, I AGREE TO A POINT. BUT
Mick, I agree to a point. But actually the V has turned out better than I thought for rando rides. I'm very comfortable for the long haul, and actually I've thought the V might be a more comfortable bike for me on long hauls because it spreads my weight out on my back, whereas on the Silvio I fear a numb rear. So far the V's comfort has been great. It's not even a harsh ride like one would expect from a suspension-less AL frame, it's actually not bad.
As far as carrying things, I've been able to do well with my BentUp Cycles aerobag (or whatever they call it), and Fastback double-century bladder bags under the seatback as mini panniers. I put a Fastback Norback on the front boom right above the front tire to carry all my tools and bike-fixing gear. I only use the Fastback double-century side bags on longer rides that require more change of clothes -- like a 600k I'm going to do this weekend up to Lake Superior (very cold by the lake).
I've been able to mount all the lights I need, including a Supernova E3 Triple.
The only thing I desire, like I said earlier, is the ability to sit more upright for unfamiliar urban areas. And possibly the ability to run a 130/74 triple. But maybe I just need to train more.
Thu, 2012-08-23 14:22
#13
JIM, THANKS FOR THE ADVICE.
Jim, thanks for the advice. I'll keep practicing down to 5mph. Might have to give up eating cookies at the controle points.
And get myself a PowerTap!
Thu, 2012-08-23 21:10
#14
AND A NICE LOW GRANNY GEAR!
And a nice low granny gear!
Thu, 2012-08-23 21:50
#15
ROUN
Charlesw , my experiences riding the V on hills and on brevets are practically identical to yours. Plenty of luggage space to be self sufficient , very comfortable on long rides, stalling at a speed somewhere around 6 km/ hr. on a climb. I can climb at 6 km/ hr but the return on investment in terms of energy expended vs distance covered means its often better for me to walk. I use walking as a form of rest for the muscles used in pedalling and I eat and drink so its a form of rescuscitation whilst still covering ground..
Mick , I agree with charles that the V is a really good rando bike. i would not be surprised if more long distance riders were to choose the V as their prefered bicycle, that we would see more reports in the future of excellent performances such as those by the Parkers .
For longer brevets 300 km and beyond I would favor the V. Its a faster bike on the flats, and down hills , I find it a more efficient climber than the Silvio ,
Having said that the two Cruzbikes have lmuch more in common with each other than with my RWD drive recumbent. Both Cruzbikes win hands down
Let's say the difference in speed between the V and the Silvio is 10 % and say it takes me 37 hours to do a 600 km brevet on the V without pushing things close to my limits of endurance and included in that is 90 minutes of sleep., on the Silvio the same ride would take more than 40 hrs all things being equal, which is more than the time allowed for 600km. This means to make it in time less sleep is possible. In distance terms by the time i've covered 600 km on the V the Silvio is some 50 to 60 km behind.
If the difference is only 5% between the two bikes it would take me just short of 39 hrs to do the same ride on the S . which is Ok but doesn't leave much of a buffer. So , if competition is important whether its against the clock or against other riders then the V would be my recommendation over the Silvio just on speed alone.., but really Mick I would have no regrets at all about the Silvio . Its an excellent bike.
The genius of the V is that it achieves its status without having to compromise on what it takes to make a great randonneuring bike.
Charles, I wish you well and good speeds on the 600 km .
Thu, 2012-08-23 22:39
#16
IF THE HILL IS VERY STEEP AND
If the hill is very steep and long, and I need more than 240W of power to maintain minimum speeed, then it is smarter to walk the bike. Maria's coach advises that when in a long race (e.g. 12 or 24 hours) you only have a limited number of "matches to burn" and it's better to walk the bike when the power requirement goes way up.
In reality, we rarely walk our bikes, but in a long race, it's probably better to maintain a steady, sustainable power output, than overdo it early and lower your performance later.
-Jim Parker
Jim,
So on what occasion would you find yourself actually walking your bike? A coworker of mine rode with you up Caesar's Head, and he said that he made it to the top not much ahead of you. With that in mind, what would it take for you to get off and walk?
Fri, 2012-08-24 00:16
#17
HI JIM, IN REALITY, WE RARELY
Hi Jim,
In reality, we rarely walk our bikes, but in a long race, it's probably better to maintain a steady, sustainable power output, than overdo it early and lower your performance later.
I agree with this. What I've found on my Sofrider is that having a gear low enough to spin up the hills is crucial for me. When I didn't have low gearing, I had a lot more trouble "keep on keeping on" up the hill. And in my case, I'm not riding the <start jealous rant>crazy insane<end jealous rant> races you guys are doing, so my goal is to be able to ride up everything I see (even if that means that I have to stop, rest and catch my breath and start up again in a few minutes).
I'm not buying a Vendetta in the immediate future (I don't play the lottery, so that would have been pretty much my only hope... ). I'm very much willing to believe that I won't need to go as low in gear inches on a Vendetta as a Sofrider as it's both (a lot) lighter and more efficient. Even with that, given the hills near where my inlaws (and Randy) live, I don't think that a granny gear of 30 would be sufficient for me. (Of course, maybe in the couple of years it takes me to be able to afford the bike, I'll get enough improved that I would be o.k.).
). I'm very much willing to believe that I won't need to go as low in gear inches on a Vendetta as a Sofrider as it's both (a lot) lighter and more efficient. Even with that, given the hills near where my inlaws (and Randy) live, I don't think that a granny gear of 30 would be sufficient for me. (Of course, maybe in the couple of years it takes me to be able to afford the bike, I'll get enough improved that I would be o.k.).
So, for the Vendetta V2 or V3, can we figure out how to get a lower granny gear on it?
Thanks!
Charles
Charles
Fri, 2012-08-24 01:23
#18
MORE ON CLIMBING
I'm agreeing with a lot of the observations here. Understand that Maria and I have been out trying to push the limits on this new technology, and it's very gratifying, and exciting, to see other pioneers validating what we have discovered. I have no doubt that there is more to learn and more potential of this design to be tapped.
Andrew, the only time in recent memory that I pushed a bike up a hill was on a very steep ramp going up Mt. Cheaha in Alabama during the Heart of the South 200. I probably could have kept riding, but I came across my friend Ted pushing his Vendetta after he had taken a corner too fast and skidded out, getting a case of road rash. And this is a good lesson: a very talented rider and member of the elite Team Bacchetta, Steve Petty, passed me while I was walking. Many hours later, I was able to finish the race strong and hold Steve off for the win in the recumbent division. One DF rider beat me. If I hadn't pushed the bike (probably for about 10-15 minutes) I might not have had the energy reserve to finish strong.
FTHILLS is right on the money with the V as a great bike for brevets. Maria just did the "pre-ride" of the 1200K Taste of Carolina brevet with (reportedly) 50,000 ft of climbing (but probably 36,000 ft is more accurate). The official event starts on 8/29/12, but Maria got permission to ride earlier. She finished in 69.3 hours, which is faster than anyone did last year. Some consider this event a good test if you are considering solo RAAM. I rode the last seven hours with her on Friday night after I finished work at the hospital. I started the ride with her during a heavy rain, but it turned in to a gorgeous, cool night and we arrived at the final checkpoint at 1:34 AM. Maria had started the race at 4:15 AM on Wednesday.
And, I admit I will occasionally get "recumbent butt" on the Silvio, but never on the Vendetta. I like having my weight distributed more over my back.
Charles P., the Vendetta is not only lighter than the Silvio, but John designed the front end for extra stiffness. He put ring clamps in as wide a position as possible on the BB shell to stabilize the front end. The rings clamps can interfere with very small inner chainrings. The 30T inner ring on the Shimamo triple will fit, but the chain retention tabs must be cut off (which I do before shipping to customers). Maria and I prefer SRAM doubles, either compact or standard, with a wide range cassette. We currently run 11x32 cassettes. As I alluded to before, I don't see much point to have gearing that takes me at speeds less than 4-5 mph. If the hill is so steep that I have to drop to below 4 mph, probably better to walk.
I prefer the Silvio for rides where I need a substantial rack mounted, or if there will be a lot of stopping and starting through congested areas. The Vendetta can certainly navigate congested areas, but just takes a bit more concentration and use of the abdominal muscles to sit up tall while eye-balling traffic.
Jim
Fri, 2012-08-24 03:19
#19
HI JIM, AS I ALLUDED TO
Hi Jim,
As I alluded to before, I don't see much point to have gearing that takes me at speeds less than 4-5 mph. If the hill is so steep that I have to drop to below 4 mph, probably better to walk.
I don't fundamentally disagree (although I'd put the cutoff at 3 mph). I'm from the flatlands of Illinois and as such I'm fundamentally confused about hills. I'm trying to get around this by practicing climbing them. And, as much as possible, I try not to "cheat" and walk up instead of riding.
One factor where we may differ is where we end up on the spin/mash scale. I personally am on the spin side of the spectrum and because of this prefer lower gearing. If you are less of a spinner, than having a transmission that doesn't go as low in gear inches is much less of a problem. (Crank length throws a whole other group of monkeys onto the problem, so I won't even bring that up.)
Cheers,
Charles
Charles
Fri, 2012-08-24 05:29
#20
CADENCE: SPINNING AND MASHING
Hi Charles,
Well if you want to go really low with the gearing, on either the Silvio or the Vendetta, the Ultegra triple plus a MTB rear derailleur such as the Shimano M592 will allow you to use a 30t chainring and a 36t cassette ring. That gets you a gain ratio of less than 1.6, or a speed of 3.9 mph at a cadence of 60. Or you can spin at 100 rpm and go 6.5 mph.
Well if you want to go really low with the gearing, on either the Silvio or the Vendetta, the Ultegra triple plus a MTB rear derailleur such as the Shimano M592 will allow you to use a 30t chainring and a 36t cassette ring. That gets you a gain ratio of less than 1.6, or a speed of 3.9 mph at a cadence of 60. Or you can spin at 100 rpm and go 6.5 mph.
Maria and I both prefer longer cranks (175mm) and a slow cadence. My standard cadence is about 80 rpm and Maria's is a bit slower than mine. A slower cadence allows a rhythm that includes the upper body. If you watch the best DF riders climbing, sometimes they are down in the saddle spinning, and there is no rocking action. Then when they really want to accelerate up the hill, they slow their cadence, get out of the saddle, and rock the frame forecefully side-to-side. I know the common wisdom from all recumbent experts is to spin, not mash. As usual, Cruzbike turns everything upside-down or backwards.
On a RWD recumbent, to be your best at climbing, sprinting, and long flat pieces, all you need to be good at is spinning.
On a DF or Cruzbike, to be your best at climbing, sprinting, and long flat pieces, you need to be good at spinning and slow, rhythmic pedaling (mashing). Being able to slow your cadence and use the upper body to leverage the BB axle is one of the key advantages of DFs and Cruzbikes. In my opinion, that's why they climb better, pound-for-pound, than other recumbents. You can probably do just fine on a Cruzbike only spinning. But I think if you also practice and learn how to mash (Cruzbike-style) you will be able to leap up shorter hills much faster. On long climbs, like the climb up to Caeser's Head (7 miles non-stop climbing) spinning was all I had the energy to do.
Jim
Fri, 2012-08-24 11:08
#21
HI JIM, EXTRAORDINARY EFFORT
Hi Jim,
Extraordinary effort by Maria.
1200km in 69 hours with 12000 metres of climbing !!
This clamours for a thread/blog all of its own.
Really well done. From strength to strength.
And is that a hint about RAAM you dropped in there ? Team Vendetta RAAM 2013 ??
Fri, 2012-08-24 11:12
#22
THANKS, JIM.
I'm sure this is on behalf of all the forum members following this thread...
Thank you for you in-depth answers. I am not yet a Cruzbike owner, but understanding the bike, the mechanics of riding it and the techiniques that help are important to me as I plan my 2013 riding goals.
Sat, 2012-08-25 03:13
#23
CADENCE, SPINNING, AND MASHING
Thanks Jim for your input on cadence, spinning, and mashing. It should help me tomorrow when I attempt to earn one of the red polka dot jerseys at the Little Mountain ride over in Kosciusko, MS. Regardless of the results, it should be a good indication of what to expect at the Texas Time Trials next month on the Silvio.
Ted
Ted
__________________
"The only way of finding the limits of the possible is by going beyond them into the impossible." Arthur C. Clarke
Sat, 2012-08-25 03:47
#24
MEGARANGE
Given the Vendetta's retriction on smaller chainrings it does seem that a wide ratio cassette would be needed to climb hills. The down side of this approach is that whilst riding on flats and rollers there are less suitable cassette sprockets to choose from to dial in the appropriate cadence, which will effect efficiency. Road cassettes generally have one tooth differences between the first 5 or so small sprockets which equates to about 7% change between gears. Wide range (mountain bike) cassettes tend to have two teeth differences which equates to 14% change which can result in having to settle for suboptimal cadence at some cruising speeds.
Despite cassette manufactures insistance on producing only set configurations it is possible to mix and match - see Sheldon Brown. On my bent I use a road cassette with the larger cogs replaced by those taken from mountain bike cassettes ( the larger cogs don't wear at anywhere near the rate of the small ones, so I can transfer them over when I replace the cassette / chain) . 11-12-13-14-15-16-18-21-26 combined with 52-39-24 chainrings gives close changes at cruising speeds (where I spend most of my time) and a few widely spaced granny gears down to 24". Fast, smooth gear changes at the back, not so much in the front though. The relativly wider percentage change between the larger rear sprockets helps reduce the number of gear changes whilst climbing, which is a good thing (unless you care to maintain full power through the gear changes).
Shimano did produce low end cassettes that followed this design - 7 speed MegaRange if memory serves.
Jake
__________________
Trek Y3 Cruzbike Conversion.
Bacchetta Giro 26 ATT.
Collection of increasingly underused wedgies.
No car.
Bacchetta Giro 26 ATT.
Collection of increasingly underused wedgies.
No car.
Sat, 2012-08-25 04:29
#25
"REDUCE THE NUMBER OF GEAR CHANGES WHILST CLIMBING"
Jake - I like your idea of cassette gearing setup. Close spaced gearing for cruzing and still low gearing available for the steeps.
I also appreciate Jim's explanation of his compact double setup. Much food for thought!
I also appreciate Jim's explanation of his compact double setup. Much food for thought!
__________________
Randy - Silvio 1.0
Sat, 2012-08-25 09:11
#26
SPOT ON
Jake,
spot on post.
It makes even more sense if you look at the power increase due to aerodynamic drag. Those 7% ratio steps are not 7% power steps, but 22% power steps. This explains why close ratios are important for tuning into the power you want to deliver, expecially (so it seems from personal experience) if you look for quite a narrow cadence.
spot on post.
It makes even more sense if you look at the power increase due to aerodynamic drag. Those 7% ratio steps are not 7% power steps, but 22% power steps. This explains why close ratios are important for tuning into the power you want to deliver, expecially (so it seems from personal experience) if you look for quite a narrow cadence.
The only change I would have made if I had been editor of your post would be to dispense with the notion of gear inches. There are too many readers using different length cranks for gear inches to have much consistency of meaning. Plus they are imperial, and so alienate all of us in countries outside the US who in fact measure things in metric. So it makes sense to go to a unitless measure such as a gain ratio - Sheldon Brown again.
Sun, 2012-08-26 05:26
#27
VARIOUS REPLIES
Hi Ted,
Let us know how you did today, and if you have a new polka dot jersey.
Let us know how you did today, and if you have a new polka dot jersey.
Hi FT,
Maria is my hero. I haven't had time to do a write-up of her 1200K, but she completed the whole thing with a great attitude. She wasn't even trying to finish in a fast time, but rather testing herself with a RAAM-style sleep pattern. She handled about 4 hours sleep a night very well. If she decides to do RAAM, a stellar performance would not surprise me.
Maria is my hero. I haven't had time to do a write-up of her 1200K, but she completed the whole thing with a great attitude. She wasn't even trying to finish in a fast time, but rather testing herself with a RAAM-style sleep pattern. She handled about 4 hours sleep a night very well. If she decides to do RAAM, a stellar performance would not surprise me.
Hi Jake (and John),
I like the Megarange in concept, but the {emphasis added} "Fast, smooth gear changes at the back, not so much in the front though" is the kicker for me. I've just had too many problems with finicky triple front derailleurs. I prefer the quick rock-solid chainring shift with virtually no chance of chain derailment that a double gives me.
I like the Megarange in concept, but the {emphasis added} "Fast, smooth gear changes at the back, not so much in the front though" is the kicker for me. I've just had too many problems with finicky triple front derailleurs. I prefer the quick rock-solid chainring shift with virtually no chance of chain derailment that a double gives me.
I can get my 7% ratio steps by varying my cadence a mere 6 rpm from an average of 80 rpm. If I was a pure spinner, I might be more dependent on a narrow cadence window. Being able to work comfortably at a cadence of anywhere from 70 to 95 negates the down side of bigger jumps between cassette cogs.
Hi Andrew,
Hopefully your condtion, lack of a Cruzbike, will be cured soon.
Hopefully your condtion, lack of a Cruzbike, will be cured soon.
Jim
Wed, 2012-08-29 04:15
#28
YOU GUYS DONT MAKE IT EASY
I'm on the fence between a Silvio & Vendetta & the above doesnt make it an easy choice given I was 1st set on the Silvio (yes I know common sense dictates this being a Vendetta board that opinions will lean towards the Vendetta). I was talking with Tommy at FFR trike & I must say he's being very helpful as well. I have an Optma Lynxx I'm trying to sell and a Fuji Tour Pro a doner bike for components.
Greg
Wed, 2012-08-29 06:36
#29
GREG , WHAT SORT OF RIDES
Greg , what sort of rides interest you the most e.g long distance, racing ?
Wed, 2012-08-29 06:57
#30
I'M ON THE SAME FENCE. RIGHT
I'm on the same fence.
Right now I ride a bit over 20 miles per day 5 to 7 days per week primarily on a mix of park roads and park multi use paths. Mostly solo but will ride with some friends every so often. I'm with Maria on this - I enjoy riding partly because it makes it easier to enjoy eating - balance right? 
I tend to want to maintain a steady push as opposed to an amble and lately have started using Cyclemeter to find out what I've been doing. I average 14-16 mph with top speeds in the 30s puffing around on an ancient DiamondBack Ascent Mountain Bike I bought back around 1987 or 88 with street rubber, a Topeak Dyanpak with too much junk in it and my 180 pound, 5 foot 7 inch (barely) self. I also will ride some of the same routes with my Mobiky Genius folder with 12 inch wheels with commensurate weird looks.
I've commuted in the past when I could do so along mostly bike paths with some public road but to commute now would be 24 miles one way along mostly country roads with little to no shoulder and aggressive Michigan drivers - hopefully Jim and Maria only met the nice variety when they were up here recently. I am good with the commute distance but a bit leary of our drivers.
I'm mildly intrigued with trying some timed competition riding of some sort but right now it is only a mild interest. I did crew on a 24 foot racing sailboat for 6 years roughly during the 1999-2005 time frame and I was a competive gymanast, diver, and swimmer more than 35 years ago so maybe the competitive spirit has dimmed a bit...
-Eric
Wed, 2012-08-29 09:21
#31
CHOICES, CHOICES
Hi Greg,
Tommy at FFR has both a Silvio and Vendetta so he should be a good resource for you.
Tommy at FFR has both a Silvio and Vendetta so he should be a good resource for you.
Something to consider, and this goes to Eric, too, is getting a Quest or Sofrider. I know this is a Vendetta forum, but those two bikes offer an affordable way to get into Cruzbike riding and you will be surprised how fast you can go. Years ago, Maria and I discovered our speed almost by accident on Sofriders. We had just started riding clipped-in on a tour across NC, and we were keeping up or passing pacelines of DF bikes.
The Quest or Sofrider are especially good if you often ride on shared use paths or trails. I think there is a decent second-hand market for them, so if you later decide you want a faster bike, you can sell it and get a Silvio or Vendetta.
Jim
Wed, 2012-08-29 12:39
#32
NO JERSEY
@ Jim,
No red polka dot jersey ... at 1:58 (18.4 mph avg), it wasn't nearly fast enough ... but expect you and Maria would be top contenders for one of them next year if you wanted ... it would be neat to have and wear one of 'em
No red polka dot jersey ... at 1:58 (18.4 mph avg), it wasn't nearly fast enough ... but expect you and Maria would be top contenders for one of them next year if you wanted ... it would be neat to have and wear one of 'em
Still, it was a good primer (all but the last 10 miles in the rain) on the Silvio for the TTT next month. Got a feeling that it, the Tejas 500, is going to be just as much of a mental challenge as it is a physical challenge ...
Ted
__________________
"The only way of finding the limits of the possible is by going beyond them into the impossible." Arthur C. Clarke
Wed, 2012-08-29 13:55
#33
TED: SWEET JERSEY! I'D WANT ONE TOO.
Thu, 2012-08-30 14:23
#34
RANDONNEURING SOUNDS LIKE FUN
Randonneuring sounds like fun. I would enjoy hearing more about which Cruzbike you used and what issues you encountered with the model you rode and what some of the routes are like, the time it took for the distances you rode, and what you like about it.
The riding characteristics of a recumbent vs a DF that Dan Fallon describes In a 300k brevet from Flagstaff to the Grand Canyon on his blog along a dangerous route section is interesting but I'm curious if Dan was riding one of his Cruzbikes or one of his other recumbents and if the Cruzbike FWD, MBB configuration makes this issue easier to deal with?
I've linked Dan's complete post above. Below is the part of his blog post I'm referring to. How would the Vendetta handle this vs the Silvio? Quest? Sofrider? Any significant differences between bikes when gusting cross winds are involved?
"This section is difficult for any recumbent bike. Add to it the 3 - 5% incline and a gusting 20 mph wind from the west and it is more than difficult; it is potentially lethal.
The upright bike has far more balance capability than the bent. The upright rider can get out of the saddle and rock the bike back and forth with minimum of difficulty in order to ride a straight line.
The bent rider doesn't have that option. By design the recumbent bike and the rider are one unit. Under difficult conditions the bent rider has to be far more careful of road conditions, weather conditions and crosswinds."
This also brings my Motorcycle Safety Foundation training to mind where they train you in maneuvering around obstacles where one of the key points is to not focus on what is immediately in front of you but focus through the path you need to take, e.g. focus more on the exit out of a curve in front of you instead of the entrance to that curve. Does this apply in Dan's scenario and more generally woud following this technique help mitigate some of the wobbles that new Cruzbike riders experience?
-Eric
Thu, 2012-08-30 15:11
#35
MAYBE AN INTERMEDIATE MODEL
Maybe an intermediate model is needed? One with the seat angle half way between the Silvio and Vendetta (or just angle adjustable between the angles of both), with a rear Silvio style minimalist suspension to keep weight down and long range fatigue down? I always seem to climb better on bikes with more closed seating positions. A cool feature would be adjustable spring loaded seat angle, just hold a little lever under the seat while leaning forward to bring the angle up for a steeper climb, and drop it back down when you hit the fast flats
__________________
Regards,
~Nanda Holz
Petaluma, CA
925.301.7043
www.spincyclz.com
onyourleft@spincyclz.com
...our service revolves around you
~Nanda Holz
Petaluma, CA
925.301.7043
www.spincyclz.com
onyourleft@spincyclz.com
...our service revolves around you
Thu, 2012-08-30 21:36
#36
HI, I'VE HEARD OF PEOPLE
Hi,
I've heard of people putting air bladders on the backs of their seats so they can adjust the angle somewhat. Depending on how you set that up, that might be just the ticket!
Cheers,
Charles
Charles
Thu, 2012-08-30 23:27
#37
"MAYBE AN INTERMEDIATE MODEL "
- Nanda, I wondered about very low seat angle too, not just from all the above stated reasons. I wear vari-focal lens glasses...I wondered if the low seat angle would allow me to tip my head forward enough to see through the 'distance' part of the lenses. And yes, suspension. In my neck of the woods the roads are rough, in places, even for the suspension on the Silvio.
__________________
Randy - Silvio 1.0
Thu, 2012-08-30 23:48
#38
PRESCRIPTION SUNGLASSES
Randy,
I have a second pair of prescription sunglasses (distance focus only) and that works well. Do they do two for one offers in your neck of the planet?
I have a second pair of prescription sunglasses (distance focus only) and that works well. Do they do two for one offers in your neck of the planet?
Fri, 2012-08-31 00:21
#39
HA JOHN!
HaHa John, you're the designer, not the optician! Seriously, thanks for the tip.
__________________
Randy - Silvio 1.0
Sat, 2012-09-15 02:07
#40
BALANCE ISSUE
In response to Eric Winn's post (below):
The riding characteristics of a recumbent vs a DF that Dan Fallon describes In a 300k brevet from Flagstaff to the Grand Canyon on his blog along a dangerous route section is interesting but I'm curious if Dan was riding one of his Cruzbikes or one of his other recumbents and if the Cruzbike FWD, MBB configuration makes this issue easier to deal with?
I've linked Dan's complete post above. Below is the part of his blog post I'm referring to. How would the Vendetta handle this vs the Silvio? Quest? Sofrider? Any significant differences between bikes when gusting cross winds are involved?
"This section is difficult for any recumbent bike. Add to it the 3 - 5% incline and a gusting 20 mph wind from the west and it is more than difficult; it is potentially lethal.
The upright bike has far more balance capability than the bent. The upright rider can get out of the saddle and rock the bike back and forth with minimum of difficulty in order to ride a straight line.
The bent rider doesn't have that option. By design the recumbent bike and the rider are one unit. Under difficult conditions the bent rider has to be far more careful of road conditions, weather conditions and crosswinds."
This also brings my Motorcycle Safety Foundation training to mind where they train you in maneuvering around obstacles where one of the key points is to not focus on what is immediately in front of you but focus through the path you need to take, e.g. focus more on the exit out of a curve in front of you instead of the entrance to that curve. Does this apply in Dan's scenario and more generally woud following this technique help mitigate some of the wobbles that new Cruzbike riders experience?
-Eric
Eric ...
A 30 mph cross wind is going to push a bicycle and rider sideways, no matter what platform (upright or 2 wheel bent). The rider can `focus through on the path you need to take' all s/he wants but that won't inhibit the laws of physics. Whether on an uphill, flat or downhill crosswinds have to be respected.
I've observed in the last few months a few cyclists (upright and 2 wheel bent) getting seduced into the `thrill' of fast descents and then `reduced' to mortal collections of road rash and broken bikes.
It wouldn't have mattered if I had ridden a Cruzbike or any other recumbent.
As I mentioned in the section you quoted, there is a difference between how a cyclist can handle crosswinds (not to mention `ribbed' roads on a screaming descent):
The upright bike has far more balance capability than the bent. The upright rider can get out of the saddle and rock the bike back and forth with minimum of difficulty in order to ride a straight line.
The bent rider doesn't have that option. By design the recumbent bike and the rider are one unit. Under difficult conditions the bent rider has to be far more careful of road conditions, weather conditions and crosswinds.
.
Sat, 2012-09-15 03:40
#41
THANKS DAN, I'M TRYING TO
Thanks Dan,
I'm trying to live vicariously through your stories to learn and understand the ins and outs of recumbents. In reading about your experiences on your blog and these forums it looks like you have a more detailed and nuanced approach to exploring riding characteristics so I value your insight and advice.
To date the only recumbent experience I have is about 45 minutes to an hour of test riding a Silvio but I placed an order for a Vendetta yesterday so I am looking forward to many years and miles of riding to come. BTW, would love to come visit the Prescott area some day and try some of the dauting looking riding you've blogged about.
I totally agree with you about the need to recognize and deal compently with the dangers of crosswinds, speed, road hazards, etc. but because of the amount of riding you've done on different bikes I was really curious if you could discern if the Cruzbike design (FWD, MBB, very stiff geometry) made any measurable difference in dealing with those issues as compared to other designs.
For example, a lot of discussion surrounding Cruzbikes are the ability to engage your upper body during climbing or rapid acceleration to do some of that same rocking back-and-forth albeit not quite in the same manner as an upright bike.
I had two thoughts on this:
- The heavier MBB front end and resulting issues with moments of inertia might make the Cruzbike more susceptible to control issues in a cross wind
- The upper body power-rocking of the Cruzbike and the heavier MBB front end and resulting issues with moments of inertia might make the Cruzbike less susceptible to control issues in a cross wind.
It sounds like it might be a wash from your description and cross winds are just particularly bad for recumbents period.
I am beginning to grok the recumbent bike and rider as one unit, especially after riding the Silvio - that was so cool. I felt like I was banking an airplane rather than riding a bike. I don't really grok anything else about recumbents because I haven't ridden them - but this will change with my Vendetta purchase.
I did a poor job of expressing my thoughts relating to the MSF "look through/past your path" as I wasn't thinking of it in relation to having a crosswind to deal with but just for dealing with maneuverability in general and perhaps more specifically as an aid to learn how to ride a Cruzbike for the first time. This concept combined with Charles Plager's advice to take your feet off the pedals when things started getting dicey both seemed to help me on my first exposure to the Silvio. I found looking through and past my turns was really helpful and was soon comfortable doing u-turns with the Silvio after only a few minutes of riding. The most useful thing however was taking my feet off the pedals when things were getting weird - thanks Charles!
-Eric
Sat, 2012-09-15 03:55
#42
(YOU ARE VERY WELCOME ERIC!)
(You are very welcome Eric!)
Sat, 2012-09-15 14:33
#43
EXPERIENCE
Eric ...
Much of what we're discussing can only be appreciated `from the neck down.' And I've learned that my `neck down' is different from other's `neck down.'
My suggestion is that you put lots of miles and hours on the bike. You'll likely learn things through your fingers and toes that none of our talking about will teach.
BTW: a crosswind is a crosswind. Whether you're on an upright, a recumbent or an 18 wheeler. No. I have not experienced any deficit or benefit in dealing with a crosswind on a front wheel or a rear wheel drive recumbent. The only difference in a crosswind is whether you get `slapped' off the road or just `pushed' off the road.
Sun, 2012-09-16 00:51
#44
AERODYNAMICS
I thought I'd point out what seems obvious to me, so (bear with me)
here are a few points I'd like to point out...
before I get to the point:
here are a few points I'd like to point out...
before I get to the point:
-The aerodynamics of the machine is important when speeds increase.
This thread has been about climbing.... Now we seem to be descending!
This thread has been about climbing.... Now we seem to be descending!
-Of course, if there is a headwind, then aerodynamics is also important
when you're climbing.
when you're climbing.
-The Vendetta, the Silvio and the Sofrider are all short wheelbase,
moving bottom bracket and front wheel drive bicycles.
They all differ in detail but all share the same basic design.
moving bottom bracket and front wheel drive bicycles.
They all differ in detail but all share the same basic design.
My Sofrider (with me on it) never felt solidly planted at high speeds.
I'm guessing that I have never truly been able to relax.
I'm guessing that I have never truly been able to relax.
This is how I solved my nervous bike:
I installed wheel disks on my rear wheel.
The extra area behind the Center Of Gravity (C.O.G.) acts like the vertal fin,
the rudder, of an aircraft.
I installed wheel disks on my rear wheel.
The extra area behind the Center Of Gravity (C.O.G.) acts like the vertal fin,
the rudder, of an aircraft.
The rear wheel disks react to side gusts, of course, but they also provide
self-centering forces (on my bike, for me) when side gusts try to deflect the path of
my bicycle.
self-centering forces (on my bike, for me) when side gusts try to deflect the path of
my bicycle.
As an added benefit, my bike has a higher top speed with the rear wheel disks
installed.
installed.
You may find the same aerodynamic benefit -of more area behind your C.O.G.- as I do,
if you have a rear fairing, a rear bag or rear panniers installed on your bike.
You may even benefit with a deep-rim Zipp style rear wheel.
if you have a rear fairing, a rear bag or rear panniers installed on your bike.
You may even benefit with a deep-rim Zipp style rear wheel.
Or not.
After all, your riding style is your own and our experience on our Cruzbikes
may be different.
Nevertheless, aerodynamics is a factor to consider!
may be different.
Nevertheless, aerodynamics is a factor to consider!
Descend safely,
-Steve
-Steve
__________________
"Me, we."
-Muhammad Ali
-Muhammad Ali
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